Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Alice braced for the storm. This week, the storm hits, and I take advantage of the din to talk about something almost completely unrelated. Again.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. This week’s post also contains mild spoilers for Beowulf. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 32: The One Who Hates
Point of View: Kaladin, Shallan
Setting: A Storm, Elhokar’s Warcamp, Shallan’s carriage
Symbology: Spears, Chanarach, Jezrien
IN WHICH Kaladin is a storm; Skyvoice interrogates him about his intentions towards Syl; Kaladin denies that he will betray and kill her; A second storm rises on the horizon, and Skyvoices announces that HE COMES; Kaladin wakes up, still on guard duty; Ominous feelings cause him to open the shutter to the storm; In her carriage, Shallan watches pattern, who is whimpering of bad things; Syl runs into the storm, and announces that he’s coming, the one who hates is watching; Kaladin demands to relocate the king; Dalinar trusts his captain’s intuition, for now; Half of Kaladin’s advance squad dies, and the Alethi confront the Assassin in White; Elhokar escapes, and battle is joined, but the Assassin is here for Dalinar; Ceilings are trod upon in most undignified fashion; Despite his magical speed and strength, things get out of hand (geddit?) for Kaladin when he takes a Shardblade to the arm; Szeth swings to kill Dalinar, but the highprince catches the blade between his hands; Kaladin tackles Szeth, and they both tumble out a hole in the castle, into open air.
Quote of the Week:
Syl spun around, twisting this way, then that. Her small eyes opened wide. “He’s coming.”
“Who? The storm?”
“The one who hates,” she whispered. “The darkness inside. Kaladin, he’s watching. Something’s going to happen. Something bad.”
There’s this guy you might have heard of, name of Beowulf. Wrestlemaster, excellent swimmer, fought a dragon one time, the whole deal. He’s one of my personal heroes, my favorite early superhero, because he’s basically the most badass version of Aquaman ever. Dude can hold his breath forever. At one point he travels underwater for most of a day:
After these words the Weder-Geat lord
boldly hastened, biding never
answer at all: the ocean floods
closed o’er the hero. Long while of the day
fled ere he felt the floor of the sea.(source)
All the while he’s wearing a breastplate and carrying a sword, and he’s still got enough energy left to kill Grendel’s mother in her own house. He’s great! But by now you’re clamoring for me to get to the point. Beowulf’s name translates to “the wolf of bees.” Wolf here means “enemy,” and the enemy of bees, in Germanic tradition, is a punning way of saying “bear,” without actually saying “bear.” Anglo-Saxons preferred not to mention bears, because what if the bears heard? They might show up, and then you’re bear dinner.
This steadfast avoidance can lead to wonderful poetry, and is part of the backbone of the kenning tradition, in which more and more fanciful ways of saying simple things were invented. (E.g., “unlock your word-hoard” means “tell us the damn story, Carl.”) Something similar seems to be happening with Skyface and Syl, here. Neither of them can say “Odium, that guy who broke me into bits, is sending a dude with a sword to murder you.” Instead, they are super ominous and only moderately helpful.
They also say things that are so entangled that they presage three things at once. “He’s coming […] The one who hates. The darkness inside. Kaladin, he’s watching.” Who’s coming? Odium, and also Szeth. Who hates? Szeth, but mostly Odium. Who has darkness inside? Szeth! Odium has darkness outside, presumably. Who’s watching? Probably Odium, Szeth is too busy stabbing.
“The one who hates”? Really? You might as well be talking about Moash, Syl.
Commentary: Kaladin, if you hurt Syl, I swear to Tor that I will reach inside your book and shake you. Yes I know it’s already written down, yes I know I’ve already read it, no I’m not going to let any of that stop me. Skyface, you’re not off the hook either! Sure, all men are traitors, I’m down with that message, but you could give him a little bit more of a roadmap than “Thou shalt, but though really shouldn’t.” TELL HIM HOW HE MIGHT HURT HER. SHE’S YOUR DAUGHTER. HE IS MORTAL AND CHANGEABLE. Gods.
I dig how much faith Dalinar puts in Kaladin’s instincts. He doesn’t know much about the young soldier, but he must have heard that his men call him Stormblessed, and they do happen to be in the middle of a storm. If there’s ever a time to trust a guy named Stormblessed, well, this might be it. Also, if there’s anyone who ought to forgive Kaladin for snoozing on the job during a highstorm, it’s Dalinar.
Speaking of Dalinar, how awesome is it that he caught that blade in mid-air? Will his list of amazing things caught between his hands continue to grow, book by book? In The Way of Kings he caught a falling chasmfiend claw, and now he’s nabbing Honorblades that want to kill him. What’s more, he’s doing so bare-handed! I’ve heard speculation that this fantastic ability to intercept blows is part of his Radiant skillset, along with his preternatural capacity with plate and blade. Maybe! I want more data points, though.
Chapter 32 marks a turning point in Adolin’s paranoia about surgebinders. Seeing Szeth in action, and seeing Kaladin come way closer to kicking his ass than any non-Shardbearer should, will cement his belief that there’s something really spooky going on with the bridgeboy (gross). Meanwhile, he continues to ignore magical developments in his kid brother. Typical.
Finally, let’s pour one out for Beld. We hardly knew ye, Beld. Seriously, who’s Beld? His name is mentioned twice before this chapter, once as “other bridgeman without slave mark.” It seems like a lot of previously-unnamed members of Bridge Four showed up to pad the ranks after The Way of Kings, and that’s all well and good, but you can’t kill off people we don’t know and expect us to care. Although, having said that, I realize I sound a little sociopathic.
Stormwatch: Kaladin lays eyes on the Everstorm in his dream. So, in some ways, it’s already here!
Sprenspotting: We very loudly fail to spot any spren in orbit around Szeth, because he’s too much of a jerk to merit one. We hear the voice of Skyface, the spren of being a face in the sky. We don’t see the red-eyed spren, but their malice is heavy in the air.
Ars Arcanum: Kaladin’s Stormlight makes him strong, fast, agile, and preternaturally intuitive about battle, but it isn’t yet enough to match Szeth, who has full control of the Lashings. For more information on Szeth’s bag of tricks, check out this old Grimoire post. Faced with the as-yet-superior Windrunner, Kaladin finds himself losing access to his arm, which will spur him to take his Stormlight skills to the next level. That won’t happen this chapter, though.
Heraldic Symbolism: Chanarach, Brave and Obedient, is an odd match for this chapter. Szeth is pretty obedient, although not by choice, and is in fact mostly driven to obedience by moral cowardice. Jezrien I’m equally unsure of. Maybe he’s here because Skyface is here? I’d love to hear your opinions in the comments.
That’s it for this week. Next week, Alice will watch Kaladin fall. While you’re waiting for the next thrilling installment of the Words of Radiance reread, why not read Beowulf? It’s pretty great.
Carl Engle-Laird is an editorial assistant at Tor.com, where he acquires and edits original fiction. You can follow him on Twitter here.
There is a new way to become a light eyes without getting a shard blade. It invovles laser eye surgery. This should be perfect for a surgeons son. If everyone is a light eyes, then no one is a light eyes.
Check out this link:
http://www.cnet.com/news/laser-treatment-claims-to-turn-brown-eyes-blue/#ftag=CAD590a51e
“This week’s post also contains mild spoilers forBeowulf.”
Awesome. Totally awesome.
I was so shocked the first time reading this when Szeth had a confrontation with them already – it was still Part 2, and even after what happened to Jasnah I don’t think I had absorbed how different Words of Radiance was in terms of plotting from The Way of Kings (I was reading through it as quickly as possible that first time).
It really does work for Kaladin’s sake to see Szeth in action here – he accidentally tapped into two of his three Lashings, but changing gravity like that is just so unintuitive (also imagine how terrifying it would be to do so accidentally and not know what you did).
While the Lastclap is cool, I like how Zahel will break it down later – it makes me wonder though, while Dalinar was badass to pull it off, was this a small flaw in Szeth the ultimate weapon, or does he subconsciously hold back, just a bit? I imagine it’s the former, considering Szeth is trained so extensively in using his Honorblade that he isn’t used to swinging it with the strength of a usual sword, but it’d be neat for his character if it was the latter.
Just an FYI but Brandon is scheduled to do an AMA over at /r/books today at 2pm eastern time (so a little over an hour away.
I thought for sure there would be a mention of Damnation=Braize today
freckledred @5 – Someone did mention it. See comment @5.
;)
Seriously, though, there’s a LOT of content to this chapter. So many things to talk about it’s just not possible to hit them all in one shot. That’s what we have a comment section for, right?
My first response, when I read this chapter, was to just sit and shudder and try to think of something to say… which I couldn’t, so I just scrolled on down and kept reading.
Kaladin’s dream. His conversation with the Stormfather. The red lightning in the storm second storm (which was the Everstorm foreshadowed, but I didn’t know that at the time). Syl pitching a conniption. Damnation = Braize. (Also: “…the void itself – Damnation, known as Braize…” – say what? What does that mean? Void=Damnation=Braize? What kind of a planet is that?) The mad flight for safety, only to run into the Assassin in the back corridors – because he cut a hole in the wall to get in, rather than coming in the normal way. Kaladin’s realization that Szeth is a Surgebinder. The trident formation – Dalinar, Adolin, and Kaladin working together, led by Dalinar armed only with a spear. Adolin stuck on the ceiling. Kaladin’s superskill matched by another Windrunner-powered fighter. Kaladin’s arm!!!!!! Syl’s urging, and her disclosure that “no spren guides him.” Dalinar’s lastclap. Oh, stars – DALINAR’S LASTCLAP. Kaladin’s tackle, and he & Szeth fall…
AHH! I was so shocked to find this scene here, not even at the end of Part 2. Stunned, even.
Huh. Even now, the adrenaline rushes.
I need to refresh my memory of this chapter, but let me throw out some thoughts anyway. I agree with Carl’s frustration at the lack of adequate information provided by Stormfather or Syl. Who is the ‘He’ as in “He comes”, said by Stormfather. Is it Odium, Szeth, or someone else? Syl provides a bit more information, “the one who hates, the darkness inside…he’s watching. Who is the hater, filled with darkness, who is watching? Odium, according to Hoid’s ‘correpondant’ (Dragon?), had been confined to Braize (Damnation). Was he now released with Taln and free to inflict Roshar? We know that Szeth has arrived at the palace and cut a hole in a passageway for entrance. Is Szeth filled with hate for others or just himself? Is he filled with darkness, or just under the illusion that he must perforce follow the dictates of Shinovar law regarding his duties? Is he really watching rather than acting? What can he see from outside the palace? I suspect, rather, that the allusion is to someone else – Nalan. Nalan later plays an important role in the narrative in revivifying Szeth. How did he know where Szeth was in order to arrive at the scene in the ‘nick of time’? I assume, therefore, that he has been an unseen observer and Szeth accompanier all along. He is the one filled with hate (for proto-Radiants) and darkness (Lift’s name for him) who watches.
Just wanted to pop in from Brandon’s AMA. Sadeas is confirmed as having had Hoid’s (Kaladin’s?) flute. And that Hoid wants it back.
https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/cpct6bb
Ohohohoho @6 Wetlandernw is a funny lassie
I wished there were more tidbits like this one. The first book has quite a few mentions of the Tranquiline Halls, but I guess that’s to be expected. Book Two is much more a character book, than book one. Still that line made me feel much more confident in the idea that the Honorblades/Oathpact/Heralds have a lot to do with why Odium isn’t on Roshar.
It’s also neat the other planets in this system are part of the Roshar’s mythology. Both the Damnation, and I assume the Tranquiline Halls, are important to the history of this conflict and also the astrology of the system, but are only known in a mythological sense. Some day long long long ago the people were aware of the other planets, but now it’s thought of as the afterlife or folk tales
I’m (kindof) with @8 here (I think) about Szeth. I never got that he was actually ‘evil’, but very literal/strict-minded about the Shin way being the “only” and “correct” way, which means he’s bound by being declared ‘truthless’ to be a slave. And for what? For essentially being correct about the return of the radiants/etc (it’s been a while to I don’t remember the specifics). I really kindof feel bad for him, and I hope his book gives him a chance for redemption.
The one quibble that I have with this chapter is the manor in which Szeth went about this assassination. He sneaks into the pinnacle during a Highstorm when there are so few people around. His orders, given at the end of WoK, were to do it messily with many casualties as he had been doing it before.
Why does he not attack during one of the weekly feasts with all the lighteyes around and cause a massively devastating scene (as he did with the assassination of King Hanavanar)?
He could have just been scouting the area and taken the opportunity presented except that he cut a massive hole in the wall to get in first, not very stealthy.
I think Szeth is generally pissed off that he hasn’t met anyone who could kill him yet and put him out of his misery. His playing the victim continues to annoy and frustrate me.
Carl, you said “seeing Kaladin come way closer to kicking his ass than any non-Shardbearer should, will cement his [Adolin’s] belief that there’s something really spooky going on with the bridgeboy (gross).”
IIRC, Adolin stated later in WoR, the major reason why he thinks something is up with Kaladin is that Adolin believes he saw Szeth’s honorblade go through Kaladin’s arm. From Adolin’s perspective, he beleived that Szeth had an Shardblade. When he later sees Kaladin’s arm normal, he cannot understand it. His eyes told him that Szeth sliced Kaladin’s arm. Therefore, Kaladin’s arm should be permanently dead.
BTW, does Kaladin tell anybody that Szeth’s Blade was an Honorblade and not a Shardblade? I cannot remember. I know he told some members of Bridge Four that the extra blade was Szeth’s. But I do not know if he mentioned it was a Shardblade.
I just thought of something else. In the prologue to WoR, Jasnah meets with the assassin. Jasnah thinks that the assissin’s habit of removing the eyes of her victims is a means of hiding the fact that the assassin kills with a Shardblade. Is it possible that the assassin has an Honorblade instead of a Shardblade?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
Carl why do you say “Skyface” instead of Stormfather?
What did I miss?
Based on the 17Shard (the link jeremy posted last week @64) WoR text will be changed not only in the end-scene of Szeth-Kaladin but also on several other passages. They list two changes of “Stormfather” to “Rider of Storms”
I’m doubly confused now. What’s wrong with Stormfather?
Hi @15 travyl
The change of “Stormfather” to “Rider of Storms” was, I believe, in an Eshonai interlude, so it was keeping the text/train of thought in line with what the Parshendi refer to him as
ah, ok thanks.
That still doesn’t explain why Carl uses Stormface here, though…
Ah yes, the Stormface… I think he uses that term because the Stormfather appears as a ginormous face in the clouds when he speaks (read: lectures) to Kaladin later on…or is it Dalinar?? Either way, giant face in clouds = Skyface :)
@14 Adolin figured out something weird was going on with Kaladin before the encounter with Szeth… Just the fact a simple brigeman managed to save a whole army all by himself kinda put some doubts as to the man’s story…
Seeing his arm being sliced by a Blade then healed cimented thoughts he has entertained for a while.
I would not also say this chapter ciments Adolin’s paranoia towards surgebinders… I felt more it set the fondation for Adolin’s growing insecurities towards his own ability to protect his loved ones. Didn’t he spend a whole nigh sitting on the floor, at his father’s doorsteps, wearing his full Plate, chewing some root to keep him awake in fear the Assassin would come back to slaughter his beloved father while he was unprepared?
Am I also the only one who has a hard time figuring what caughting the Blade looks like? How do you even catch a Blade in mid-air? Isn’t suppose to slice through you? I am sorry if this is obvious, but I never understood how Dalinar was able to stop a Blade with his bair hands. I thought the Blade would slice through anything like butter……….
@19 – He didn’t stop the sharp edge – he “clapped” his hands on the flat sides as it came down toward him. Very firmly, apparently, since he was able to stop the downstroke.
@20: Yes but still… Who swings a sword down onto someone presenting the flat side?
@21 This might not be terribly clarifying but…I believe the idea is the sword was coming in a downward stroke toward Dalinar, no flat presented, just cutty bit. Dalinar clapped his hands together above him, on each flat side of the Blade.
Dalinar sees this as Szeth makes an overhead stroke
——|
——|
——|
—–o|o
—/—T–
–/———
|—(#_#)—|
–—-|—-/
——|
——|
—–/–
—/—–
and does this (imagine he’s crouching)
—–{–}
/———–
_ (*_*)_/
——-|
——-|
——/
—-/—-
Side note: ASCII doodles are incrediby hard to do in these comments
At the end of this video a guy stops a sword with his hands.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qcm-9Jvn46c
@17: Carl is being very American. He’s using “Stormface” to show annoyance with the Stormfather. Therefore he’s using a nickname that can be taken as disrespectful.
I really don’t like posting from mobile devices here.
Edit: I was going to have a link here but I see @23 Braid_Tug beat me to it. Oh well XD
Also, although the blades edge can cut through most anything, the flats don’t (which is why you can put your hands on them) – I suspect because that isn’t what a sword does, and even in its dead state that is what the spren is trying to do. I think that’s why, when Syl transformed into a hammer in the battle at the end, she crashed into Szeth’s shoulder and broke bones instead of passing through. Kaladin thought of her as a hammer so she acted like one. I wonder, since Shardblades are so good at cutting, if this comes from trying to be an idealized sword of some kind – and if so, maybe when Kaladin used Syl as a hammer she had more crushing/bludgeoning power than she should have (especially since they don’t seem to have as much weight as a regular weapon would, and with a hammer the weight and how it’s distributed is very important…).
Darn it, I was just halfway through Beowulf! Now look what you’ve done …
S
Great chapter. I love how quickly Dalinar trusts Kaladin. He’s really a very good leader — delegate responsibility to someone competent and trustworthy, then trust them. Kaladin is responsible for being paranoid about all the threats to Dalinar’s family so that Dalinar doesn’t have to be. Elhokar should take notes.
—
Syl spun about, twisting this way, then that. Her small eyes opened wide. “He’s coming.”
“Who? The storm?”
“The one who hates,” she whispered . “The darkness inside. Kaladin, he’s watching. Something’s going to happen. Something bad.”
—
I took this to refer to Odium. Odium *is* the darkness inside all men. The fact that he’s watching means something bad is about to happen.
The fight. Lots of good demonstrations of surgebinding for Kaladin to learn from, but a surprisingly halfhearted effort by Szeth. He’s got plenty of opportunities to kill Dalinar — he led the charge with no shardplate and only a normal spear. He starts out lashing Adolin to the roof, rather than to either end of the long hallway, creating a short distraction rather than an deadly fall. Szeth lets the other two stab him, then cuts the spears, rather than just stabbing Dalinor. Then he slaps Dalinor, rather than stabbing him. Next chance, he just kicks Dalinor, before trying a slow swing that Dalinor is able to “lastclap.”
Lastclap… would make an awesome visual in a movie (like lots of Brandon Sanderson’s fight sequences) but fairly silly as a real tactic. Wouldn’t it be better to just shove on one flat of the blade, pushing it to one side?
@22, 23, 24 – Yes, exactly. The ASCII doodle (well done!!) and the video are exactly as described in this scene (except for the kick).
If Dalinar still had his full movement it might be better to shove on just one side, but the reason why Dalinar does the Lastclap (well, besides the fact we needed another reminder he was awesome) is because he’s been robbed of his mobility due to the blow Szeth landed. While he could push the sword to the side, that wouldn’t undo its forward momentum, and Szeth could probably just use that and bring the sword into an arc and cut him – if Dalinar could move this wouldn’t be a problem, but he couldn’t get away in time.
But as Zahel will say in Part 3, the Lastclap only works because most people don’t put the right amount of force behind a Shardblade, so it catches them by surprise – note that both times we see it have been against combatants who are, presumably, extremely familiar with using a Shardblade (to the point they’ve probably forgotten/are very rusty with a regular sword).
15. travyl
The change of calling the StormFather, the Rider of Storms, is because those particular sections were from Eshonai’s POV. And they call him the Rider of Storms.
TL/DR, but what strikes me at the moment, while we are discussing Szeth, is that when he meets Nale/Darkness at the end of the book, and evidently Nale knows that the Desolations are back, he is not panicked or repentant in the least.
@29
I was under the impression that Nale/Naln/Darkness/etc. was trying to prevent the desolations by killing off all the surgebinders.
As for his lack of panic or repentance; he’s crazy. Don’t we have WOB (or Peter) somewhere that says that sometimes the Herald glyphs relate to their “associated madness”? That would imply that all the Heralds are mad in some specific way.
Actually, now that I think about that, maybe not Taln. At least not in the same way the others are, he didn’t abandon his oaths and wander Roshar since the last desolation.
Back to Nale! I also think the way he twists “justice” to suit is own ends is pretty demonstrative of his mental instability. He’s bound to the letter of the law, yes, but he goes digging for crimes in the pasts of our proto-radiants specifically so he can kill them. That’s not the way anyone who cares about the spirit of justice behaves.
Sorry about how meandering this has been.
So I just finished another reread of the book yesterday, and something about this chapter caught my attention…
Is it possible that Szeth showing up was just a coincidence? I mean yes, Szeth has the honorblade and is abusing it, that’s bad news. But did we ever see anything to indicate he was being corrupted by Odium, or otherwise earn the title “the one who hates”?
I ask because unless my sense of timing is off, this chapter happens shortly before the end of Part 2. And in the very next set of Interludes Eshonai bonds the voidspren and takes on Stormform. That to me seems like something far more likely to set off the Stormfather and Syl and start ranting about Odium/the one who hates.
Or I could be off on the timeline, and Eshonai’s transformation takes place in the Highstorm after this one, and they actually are talking about Szeth. I just find describing Szeth the way they did as really weird.
Seerow @31 – ding ding ding ding ding! You are absolutely correct – this is the same highstorm during which Eshonai bonded the stormspren. Oh, my. I hadn’t made that connection before.
And in looking back at the beta discussion, I’m stunned at how much foreshadowing is packed into this chapter. I’m going to go make a list. Be right back.
So. Here are a few of the things we didn’t know the first time we read this chapter:
– What a spren’s “corpse” is
– That Eshonai is even now bonding the stormspren – in the “presence” of the Stormfather
– What the Everstorm will be, and what the red lightning means
– That Szeth has an Honorblade rather than a Shardblade – and therefore, no spren connection
– That the guy who killed Ym is going to try to kill Lift, be called “Darkness” and turn out to be Nalan
There are a couple of others, but that’s enough to be going on with. I think the most significant are the “corpse” comment and the fact that Eshonai is bonding the first (known) of the Odium-connected spren at this same moment. Ouch. Whether “the one who hates” is meant to be Szeth (who hates what he’s doing, and the people who make him do it, and occasionally the people who are unable to stop him), or Nalan (who seems to hate all Surgebinders except the twisted ones), or Odium (who is hatred itself), it could be any of them. I suspect it’s actually Odium, and the presence of Szeth is… not exactly coincidence, but not entirely what Syl was talking about either.
On another subject…
Compare that with this bit, from the new ending to WoR:
Maybe I should wait for next week to bring this up, but… I won’t. I don’t think the parallels are coincidence. (But I will talk more about it next week.)
To me it was clear that the one who hates is Odium. I hadn’t thought of what Seerow @31 found. The fact that Pattern is shown in this chapter loosing his cool told me that Szeth showing up was a coincedence. Why would Pattern freak out about Szeth? Didn’t make sense.
That being said, Kaladin is one lucky Captain of the guard. His assumptions about what Syl meant paid off. Thanks go to the Parshendi for ruining Szeth’s assasination attempt.
I always assumed that Syl has some kind of magical Szeth-sense (his presence made a disturbance in the Force, or something, maybe because of his Honorblade), since the exact same thing happens when Szeth confronts Dalinar at the end of the book:
Of course, the Everstorm is also brewing at the same time, so it may be that (once again?) Syl is talking about world-shattering events and Kaladin misunderstands what she’s talking about.
It is interesting how both times Szeth shows up something very distinctly related to Odium is happening simultaneously. It’ll be interesting to see how Syl reacts to Szeth when he turns back up next book (if it’s anywhere near Kaladin at least). But after getting that confirmation from Wetlandernw I am far more confident the reaction is to Odium and what the Parshendi are up to. Honestly even the first time I read I thought her saying something was wrong at the end was referring to the Everstorm.
Though at this point in time could Szeth be under Odium’s influence by way of his self loathing? I am doubtful, but it is in the realm of possibility.
I feel like the main conflict of the first five books will come down to a duel between Kaladin and Szeth. Though long odds could go to Eshonai, Venli, Nale and even Adolin. It does seem more than coincidence that Szeth keeps showing up alongside Odium. He can be manipulated with the right words and I’m beginning to wonder if Odium has noticed his potential.
I love that every character is emotionally and philosophically complex. Every “bad” person in this series could be shown the error of their ways and leave the dark side. It’s frustrating when I’m trying to get glimpses into future events – any one of them could pull a Darth Vader – but still preferable to simple pure evil.
@33
I think that if would be fun to make a top 10 list of “Things from the Stormlight Archive That Make a Lot More Sense Once You’ve Read Them All” and that the sentence about how Kaladin will kill Syl and leave her corpse to be used by other men would definitely be on that list, possibly at the top. “We leave it to your majesty’s mind on a strong day” (from the epilogue of WoK) would be another good one except that we don’t know there is deeper significance to that phrase until Tarawhatever’s interlude in WoR.
On a side note, does anyone else get tired of what a whiner the Stormfather is? He’s constantly saying how he is sorry and being all sad but not doing anything about it. Makes me want to slap him and say “Be a man!” except he’s a spren :S If I had a dollar for every time the Stormfather says he is sorry these books would pay for themselves.
I think part of why Dalinar instinctively trusts Kaladin is because of his nature as a Bondsmith. He’s sort of magically inclined to want to work with others and build trust. However, someone mentioned his skill with plate and sword being related to his KR abilities and I would disagree with that and say it’s just a matter of him having been a warrior for a couple of decades.
Heraldic Symbolism: I think bravery and obediance for anyone to stand firm against a shardbearer, let alone the Assassin in White, and not to just run away when they find out he’s coming. The books comment that it takes a lot of courage to take on a shardbearer when you don’t have one. As for Jezrien, isn’t that his blade Szeth is using?
btw, the first time I got to this part (I listen to the audiobooks) I was driving along with some friends and they had all fallen asleep so I’d put my earbuds in and turned my mp3 player on. And when they finally see Szeth and they’re facing off with them I said outloud “Ooooooh yeaaaaah” and one my friends half-woke up and is like “hmm?” And I’m like “Nothing, go back to sleep” And then a minute later Dalinar’s all like “I’m not asleep this time, you won’t take another from me!” I again sound outloud “This is awesome!” and kept waking up my friends :D After a book and a half of buildup it was pretty sweet finally seeing Szeth and Kaladin face to face even if he pwns them. And of course when they finally get to seriously have it out at the end of the book it’s freaking sweet.
I was also pretty shocked/surprised in a good way that for a minute there it looked like Kaladin would never wield a spear again. That would have been one heck of a game changer. But I don’t blame Brandon for not making it that way and obviously there’s a lot of reasons to make it clear that Stormlight CAN heal shardblade caused injuries. I’m looking forward to when we have someone with the Regrowth ability to heal the bridge 4 dude that got crippled by Szeth.
37. Airsicklowlander
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” ? Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956[/i]
@40 – Just like what I said. Except you know, like, eloquently… n’stuff. :-)
@39. JoeH42 “I’m looking forward to when we have someone with the Regrowth ability to heal the bridge 4 dude that got crippled by Szeth.”
I’d guess that Hobber’s going to be healing on his own before that, judging from Lopen’s scene near the end of WoR.
@38. JoeH42 “On a side note, does anyone else get tired of what a whiner the Stormfather is? He’s constantly saying how he is sorry and being all sad but not doing anything about it. Makes me want to slap him and say “Be a man!” except he’s a spren :S If I had a dollar for every time the Stormfather says he is sorry these books would pay for themselves.”
Totally agree. Whining that Kaladin’s just going to kill Syl, but not bothering to explain to him *how* Syl is vulnerable is ridiculous.
I really want to see someone (Adolin?) revive a dead shardblade, just to see the Stormfather’s head explode.
Aw yes. The StormfatherStormface. Embibing power. Red vs. blue. So much Tron going on in these books it’s wonderiffic.
Keep in mind that the StormFather is not completely sane, probably because of KR breaking oaths, which would have ripped bits of himself. Also, he is the cognative shadow of Honor, according to Brandon’s AMA on Reddit. So he is already the shadow of someone else – probably Tanavast before or just after his Shard shattered.
Presumably, the statement that Kal will leave Syl’s corpse to be used by other men is referring to all the dead spren tied to shardblades? It’s happened before so assumed by the Stormfather that it will be the same again.
Late to the party. :-(
(Mostly due to trying to survive the first week of the everlasting (cold?) virus, which is making the rounds hereabouts.)
Yep, I thought Szeth’s attack on Dalinar & Co. wasn’t up to his usual standards. Could it be that he’s getting tired of being a pawn for the machinations of others after 6 years of wanton killing, and is shifting more into somebody-kill-me-and-end-it-all mode?
I’d play the card about him realizing he was correct and is not truthless, but it doesn’t really kick into gear until after this encounter with Kal. Of course that also presumes we know why Szeth was made Truthless (by predicting the return of Radiants or Desolations or whatever?), which we don’t, but it’s a reasonable hypothesis to test.
Heraldic Symbolism
In addition (I think) to what other commenters pointed out…
Kaladin is clearly protecting and leading.
Dalinar and Elhokar are obedient (to Kal).
Now, are we only looking for connections to the main and/or chapter POV characters?
If not, just about everyone mentioned in this chapter is brave. Beld and Hobber surely belong on the protecting list, and probably several others do too. There’s quite a bit here, depending on where we draw the line.
Wetlandernw @32
HOW did we miss this tidbit? Oh, yeah, it’s a BWS novel, that’s how. Gotta read ’em at least twice. I got a chuckle out of your reply, which made me feel slightly less crappy. Thanks!
And @33
Good point about the parallels.
At least by the end of the WoK reread, for some reason(s) I don’t recall at the moment, I had convinced myself that Szeth’s blade was not a regular Shardblade.
Seerow @36
I’m of the opinion that Syl is refering to Odium. However, it is an odd coincidence that Szeth shows up too. I’m not feeling a Szeth-Odium connection, but I could be wrong about that.
Airsicklowlander @41
XD!
ZenBossanova @44 and HaloJones @45
Exactly!
Ways @46 – Well, in our defense, Brandon doesn’t always have a time nailed down for the Interludes, and even when he does they aren’t always exactly in line with the main story’s timeline. :) Even in his & Peter’s official timeline, some of the Interludes are labeled “unknown” and some are “approximately”. This next Eshonai Interlude has a specific date assigned, though, and it’s the same as this and the next two chapters. (I find myself being reminded, lately, just how important the highstorms are in tracking the different story arcs in this book. Much like RJ used the phases of the moon to provide clues to the passage of time, Brandon uses highstorms as reference points.)
Szeth’s Blade: Prior to WoR, I think we had at least a WoB telling us that Szeth’s Blade was different from the others, but we didn’t know for sure what it was. Solely from the books, though, I don’t think we even knew that for sure. I remember Brandon commenting that Szeth and Kaladin were using the same skill set, but not for the same reason, or something to that effect, and there was his statement about “three different kinds of Blades”… so there were clues, but nothing definite. (Apparently it’s still sufficiently indefinite that there are a few folks arguing that Szeth was carrying a not-Jezrien’s Honorblade, but I don’t think the arguments made stand up to the other evidence we have.) But it’s really hard to separate out the pre- and post-WoR-release speculations and WoBs and WoPs and everything.
(I have fun going back to the beta discussions and seeing what shocked us there – it’s the best source of “Say what???” I can think of, because the only people who’d read it so far were all right there talking about it at the same time. It helps me sort out what the major surprises were. For example, quoting the Stormfather’s statement that, “YOU WILL MURDER MY CHILD AND LEAVE HER CORPSE TO WICKED MEN” one readers said, “Oh no. No no no. She’s going to die and become a Shardblade, isn’t she?!” And someone else said, “Ooh, that’s an intriguing notion. I was wondering how a spren could leave a corpse.” I look at that now, and am reminded that prior to WoR, we didn’t know anything about where Shardblades came from, except that the KR left them behind. I sure hope I get to beta the next book….)
On a more personal note… I hope you get over the crud faster than we’ve been doing. I’m on the fourth round of it since Christmas – every time I think I’m over it, it starts again from the beginning. I’m getting tired of the endless encores this thing wants to take.
Oh, yeah. Heralds. FWIW, I have often noticed Chanarach on chapters strongly featuring Adolin, and Jezrien shows up a lot on Kaladin’s chapters. I suspect there’s a deeper reason for that correspondence than, “Oh, look, there’s Adolin. Okay, we’ll put Chanarach on this chapter, then.” I just don’t always know what the deeper reason is. That said, there are times it seems that she shows up when Adolin is specifically being obedient to Dalinar’s wishes even when he disagrees with the reasoning, so… there’s that. I could be imagining that, though.
And Chanarach is associated with the order of the Dustbringers!
Which was my prediction for Adolin! Woo Hoo!
That is, of course, a long ways from proof, but it is highly suggestive.
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/23661-who-is-actually-a-radiant/page-3
Starting with post #45, there are some meritable arguments for Adolin becoming an Edgedancer (old theories get revived, but I like some of the arguments in this thread.
I am still in favor of Dustbringer, but those are far better arguments than I was anticipating for Edgedancer.
I am less confident than I was.
@46 Ways: iirc, Szeth predicted the return of the Voidbringers (atm I can’t find what specifically makes me think that, although in his interlude after Part 3 he mentions the Voidbringers first – that’s weak evidence though), but I think to people who know how it happened it’s basically a total package: you get 1 of the 3 back (Voidbringer, Knights Radiant, Desolation), you get all 3.
That’s why Nalan is kind of fascinating – although we can’t be sure of it quite yet, his purpose seems to be rooted in a correlation/causation mistake: he knows that the KRs would return before the Desolation, so if you stopped that then maybe you could put it off. Correlation is not causation is a rather common problem nowadays, and it’s interesting to see it turn up in a fantasy story where it is directly in regard to an apocalyptic event.
Syl’s and the Stormfather’s reaction reminds me a bit of how the mists would respond to Ruin’s presence/power in Mistborn, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s both Eshonai and Szeth they are reacting to (one for Odium’s power, one for his presence, assuming he keeps watch on certain figures), although if it’s just one, yeah it’s Eshonai (poor Eshonai). That said it being this specific kind of coincidence twice strains credulity, so there might be something going on.
As for the Heraldic Symbolism, if Jezrien and Chanarach are most common for Kaladin and Adolin, it might also be because this is one of the major turning points in Kaladin and Adolin’s relationship. While they still aren’t really nice to each other, Szeth handing both of them their behinds lets them start with a clean slate in Part 3 in a shared purpose of working to not get their butts handed to them by Szeth later.
@50 & 51 – For a long time I was convinced Adolin would be either a Dustbringer or a Willshaper; now I’m almost persuaded he’ll be an Edgedancer. (Assuming he becomes a Radiant, of course.) That bit about his Blade having formerly belonged to an Edgedancer, and my longing for him to revive that Blade, make me willing to consider it a good choice – even though Vedel doesn’t show up on his chapters much. He mostly gets Chanarach or Kalak, IIRC. :) Well, it will be whatever Brandon decides it will, eh?
The Adolin becomes an Edgedancer via reviving his shardblade theory has been going on for a while (months in fact), but it never garner much support until the recent WoB by Brandon confirming his Blade indeed belonged to an Edgedancer.
Even then, most people are puzzled by it as Adolin seems, on the surface, a better candidate for the Dustbringers. I happen to agree with whoever on the 17th shard said Adolin gives a false reading as a Dustbringer. It is true he is not as reckless as we are being lead to believe by Dalinar’s personal assessment of his son. Emotional, yes, but hotheaded? Not that much. Quite the contrary, he keeps his head quite cool during combat situations.
I love this theory. So outside the box. Nobody outside the fandom would ever guess this one, which is why I think it probable.
ZenBossanova @44
I’m reflecting on Stormfather again this evening…
…and figuratively ripping out my hair because I can’t build a case to prove Stormfather existed before Honor was splintered.
I took a stab at backing into a case for that hypothesis previously (WoR chapt. 3 comments), which fell apart because one of the
legs of the stoolarguments wasn’t quite assturdyfactual as I first thought.Trying a different approach:
Most spren are composed of varying proportions of the essences of Honor and Cultivation (ref: Coppermind). However, there were spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation arrived there. Those spren are splinters of Adonalsium (ref: WoB –> Alice, Seattle AMOL signing).
So, is Stormfather a splinter of Adonalsium who has been around since before Honor and Cultivation arrived on Roshar, and who was “hijacked” to become Tanavast’s/Honor’s cognitive shadow when Odium was about to perpetrate his foul deed? Or, is Stormfather a splinter of Honor who only came into being around/at the time when Odium did his thing? (Is there a substantially different possibility I’ve left out?)
I want to believe Stormfather, and the other superspren, are splinters of Adonalsium who predate Honor’s arrival on Roshar. It’s an elegant package imho, except maybe for the part about Honor “hijacking” Stormfather with his cognitive shadow to deliver messages to Dalinar (as it turned out) and whatever else (to be determined). If Stormfather was around during the Desolations, then we can postulate that all Bondsmiths were bonded to him at that time. This appeals to me because speculation that…
(1) All Bondsmiths were bonded directly to Honor, or
(2) Each of the 3 Bondsmiths at the time of the Recreance was bonded to an individual suprespren
…just don’t feel right. Plus, Bondsmiths directly bonding Honor is inconsistent with what we know of other orders, and the WoR chapter 44 epigraph kinda refutes the second point. OTOH, Brandon has said the pre-Recreance Bondsmiths only did something similar to what Dalinar and Stormfather did. So crapola, still no solid case for Stormfather’s existance waaay back in time–before the Radiants came into being.
This comment started out going in a totally different direction from where it finally ended, but so be it.
I wonder if all splintered shards have a cognitive shadow roaming around somewhere on their planet (Dominion comes to mind)?
One thing I would like clarified first, is a Cognitive Shadow singular and unique? I mean, does Tanavast/Honor have only one? Or are there possibly multiple, with differing levels of strength?
Perhaps we should look to see if Brandon has used the article ‘the’ with the Stormfather, or ‘a’.
I suspect there is only one… but then, who did former bondsmiths link with? Surely not Honor himself.
ways @55 – Your comment, “However, there were spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation arrived there. Those spren are splinters of Adonalsium (ref: WoB –> Alice, Seattle AMOL signing).” makes me think that the 100 foot tall sea spren that Axies sees in WOK is such a spren. Off topic I know, but it came to mind while reading your comment.
Such an excellent chapter.
If the books hadn’t included a “lastclap,” I or someone else would have come up with the concept someday, and then I would have been highly disappointed if the books had never addressed the possibility. And having Dalinar do it here is just a perfect demonstration of his awesomeness, as well as a good preview of Kaladin copying that awesomeness later.
But what’s even better about the lastclap is … that just before Dalinar pulled it off, Brandon had managed to convince me that Dalinar was going to die this chapter. More than I was ever convinced that Jasnah was truly gone for good, or a number of other deaths or near-deaths in this book, the dark tone of this chapter had me ready for Dalinar to bite the dust. So when the lastclap saved him, I felt genuine relief.
And I LOVE how Dalinar immediately trusts Kaladin’s instincts about moving the king. So incredibly heartwarming.
Heralds: I don’t think we need any great “Obedient” essence for Chanarach when we have such strong “Brave” essence. And we do, in abundance. Here’s the Assassin in White, who slaughtered a whole roomfull of combatants including three shardbearers simultaneously. The bridgemen have little hope against him, but they don’t hesitate to give their lives for their king and Captain. Renarin hardly knows what he’s doing with a Blade yet, and is enduring its screaming, but he has to be talked out of helping to confront the Assassin. Kaladin and Dalinar don’t even have Shards, but face the Assassin anyway — Dalinar even taking the most dangerous point of the trident formation, rather than giving it to Adolin with his Shards. Even Dalinar’s trust in Kaladin’s instinct is a kind of courage. And Syl’s might courage, too, is indirectly highlighted by the Skyvoice’s skepticism of mortals.
Meanwhile, I just figured Jezrien was here because of Skyvoice, mostly. Though Dalinar and Kaladin’s leadership skills here are fine, too.
@35: Huh, I hadn’t noticed Syl having any remarkable degree of Szeth-danger-sense, but … it actually makes perfect sense now that you point it out. I suspect all greater spren can sense when their corresponding Honorblade is being used nearby.
53. Wetlandernw
Your idea of looking at the Heralds at the beginning of a chapter, to get an idea what order of the KR a person will end up in is very interesting. We should try this out on other characters as well. I can’t think of very many off the top of my head, besides Navani, and some of the interludes characters.
Zen @59 – It’s obviously not 100%, because depending on the focus of the chapter, another Herald may be more appropriate. But… I think you’ll find that all the chapters where Kaladin is acting Windrunner-ish, and especially the ones where he says one of the Ideals, have Jezrien as the primary (or only) Herald. Shallan has Shalash most of the time, but sometimes that could be as much because of her artwork as her Order. I was confused about Jasnah for a while, because most of her chapters in TWoK had Palah as the Herald, but then I realized that was for the Palaneum. Lift, of course, has Vedel (for Edgedancers & healing) and Nalan (for himself). The primary reason I’ll always believe (barring a contrary WoB) that Ym would have been an Edgedancer is that his arch has four pictures of Vedel. And, of course, on the chapter “The Four” we see four Heralds – and three of them, we know from the text correspond to the Orders represented. That’s why I always assumed, even before Brandon confirmed it, that Palah was the Herald for the Truthwatchers, and that Truthwatchers would have Illumination and Progression as their Surges.
I’m coming to the conclusion, though, that as a predictor it may be indicative but it’s totally not foolproof. The complete absence of Ishar on Dalinar chapters in TWoK is interesting in that regard; we don’t see Ishar on a Dalinar-PoV chapter until WoR. And I could be wrong, but I don’t think we’ve seen Vedel on a single Adolin chapter yet. Lots of Kalak, lots of Chana. No Vedel. So… either I’m totally wrong, or he’s just far enough away from beginning the process that it’s not relevant yet. Or, you know, something else. :D
I have looked all over the Coppermind, and I am not finding any page that lines up the Heralds with their respective Orders. Could someone help me out please?
Windrunner: Jezrien; Adhesion (pressure & vacuum) & Gravitation
Skybreaker: Nale (Nalan, Nin); Gravitation (gravity) & Division
Dustbringer (Releaser): Chanarach (Chana); Division (destruction and decay) & Abrasion
Edgedancer: Vedel (Vedeledev); Abrasion (friction) & Progression
Truthwatcher: Paliah (Pali, Pailiah); Progression (growth, healing, regrowth) & Illumination
Lightweaver: Shalash (Ash); Illumination (light, sound, various waveforms) & Transformation
Elsecaller: Battar; Transformation (soulcasting) & Transportation
Willshaper: Kalak (Kelek); Transportation (motion, realmatic transition) & Cohesion
Stoneward: Talenel (Taln, Talenelat); Cohesion (strong axial interconnection) & Tension
Bondsmith: Ishar (Ishi); Tension (soft axial interconnection) & Adhesion
Huh. I hadn’t realized that the Coppermind doesn’t have that readily accessible. I don’t think it’s even got all the information to allow you to put it together for yourself. It’s on 17th Shard (of course) in a couple of forms, but the trick is finding it. Mostly, it’s been confirmed by someone taking a copy of the surgebinding diagram (TWoK front endpapers) all labeled with the surges & orders, and asking if they had it right. :)
Thanks!
This is a diagram with heralds and surges marked.
Just a quick glance at WoR, has
Eshonai – Shalash, Taln x 2, Nalan, Kalak, Ishar, Batter, Shallash & Taln
Rysn – Chach
Zahel – Ishar, Nalan & Chach
Man who calls himself Taln,Wit – Chach & Masked man (Wit?)
last chapter of WoK has Taln & Masked man
Navani – Battar & Kalak, Paliah & Chach
Sebarial – Kalak & Vedeledev
Shen – Nalan & Taln, Chach
Taravangian – Pailiah & Jezrien
Elhokar – Jezrien, Nalan & Chach
I don’t trust any of these as proof – they are too scattered. Of course, there are a lot of other things and other characters going on where any of these are. But it is an interesting starting point. I wish I had found more on Elhokar, Shen, Eshonai, Zahel, and Sebarial. I didn’t check WoK yet.
I just checked and each of the pages for the Radiant orders *did* have their Herald patron listed and some of the pages for the heralds themselves listed which order they were patron of.
I just went through and updated the main herald page with this information as well as adding it to those individual herald pages that lacked it.
@55 Ways
I’m only on this forum, not the others people have listed, so forgive me if I missed something, but couldn’t the Stormfather have been a human who picked up an Honor (or Adonalsium) shard after they died, becoming something between a new and an old entity?
Or, as you mentioned that Stormfather was a “cognitive shadow” that might imply that it was a non-sentient idea that was given sentience and/or presence in the physical world at some point; again a new/old combination.
I like your theory, but it seems you’re a little more decided on this than I am.
@57 Airsicklowlander: I like your idea that the giant sea spren is from Adonalsium. It may be linked to the stormfather. (Or have bonded another Bondsmith!)
Thanks for reading.
@67 no that’s not possible. Odium splintered Honor rather than taking it or leaving it for someone else to take. Honor is actually dead, not just Tanavast.
Guys, sorry I keep being so late on these posts.
Seerow@31 great job piecing those threads together. Now that you’ve pointed it out it seems so obvious. I was wondering why Pattern was freaking out.
Seerow@36 Actually, maybe three times that Szeth has shown up there has been some Odium influence. We know that the original assassination was because the Parshendi thought Gavilar would bring back their gods. That might be related to Odium and we don’t know how they met Szeth to set him up as the assassin.
Syl may stll not have a “Szeth” sense. The “something on the winds” I think refers to the voidbringers trying/creating the ever storm.
Anybody out there still?
harveysbc @67
In addition to Seerow @68’s reply, check out Dalinar’s last POV in Chapter 89. And, from that POV, if Honor wasn’t splintered (and Tanavast was killed) and another human(oid) picked up the Shard, then Honor would still be around and there would be no need for a “…MEMORY MEN CREATE FOR HIM, NOW THAT HE IS GONE.” Wow, that’s looks bad in all caps, but it’s part of the Stormfather quote. The entirety of that paragraph should answer your question, but the whole POV is worth re-reading.
CodeMnke @70
That or Odium’s influence.
@71
Also worth mentioning. The Ym interlude. His spren sense Nalan too. “HE is still there” …. related? maybe
@72: Interesting! So do spren sense Heralds, in general, as well? Or was Ym’s spren sensing something else about Nalan — Nightblood?!?
All – I’m fascinated with this discussion and how much information is being relayed – obviously I’m years late to the party – I’ve started a spreadsheet on the Heralds and Orders, and unfortunately I tried to get to the link provided by a poster earlier but it doesn’t seem to be there anymore. Does anyone have a spreadsheet or diagram that I can take a look at?
All – I’m fascinated with this discussion and how much information is being relayed – obviously I’m years late to the party – I’ve started a spreadsheet on the Heralds and Orders, and unfortunately I tried to get to the link provided by a poster earlier but it doesn’t seem to be there anymore. Does anyone have a spreadsheet or diagram that I can take a look at?